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Thread: Pre for Stacking Tracks

  1. #11
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    Myabe in the world of high dollar consoles there isn't as much need for sonic "fingerprint" concern, but in the consumer/budget market is a very real issue. Anyone who has ever worked with just a Mackie or other lower end mixer can tell you that.

    I'll agree it is going to be less of an issue when you get into higher dollar pres and mics, but it's stilla very valid concern. If it wasn't, the whole story behind the differences between a GR ME-NV and the 1073 front end it is modeled after would be mere m-hype.

    It is doubtful that a competent engineer couldn't succeed with any of the well known high end pres, but I for one appreciate having different colors available to me, and if I were to have only one I'd pick something in the vein of Hardy or Milennia, personally.

    I have found a few sources that simply aren't very flattering through an API or Neve type pre, and there really isn't any marketing BS behind that realization. I'm glad I have a few options when it comes to that.

    I'll admit, I make a monthly mic pre payment just like my car payment...but I chose to invest in good front end gear, and upgrade elsewhere as time permits. I'm not ashamed to record through my Oktava/Rode/Mxl/AKG and now JZ mics (and am proud to be getting new mics as funds allow) but after getting used to 5 different flavors of pre I think I don't ever want to go back.

    If I had to pick just one of the ones I have now it'd probably be the Hardy Dual first, and the Milennia second.

    Shane
    Shane Bushman - 3D-VIP
    Treehouse Productions
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL

  2. #12
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    Is this first hand info? Have you personally tried getting in touch with Avalon? Are you an Avalon dealer?
    Not to speak for Fletcher, but Mercenary has been pretty close to Avalon products for quite a while now --
    http://www.mercenary.com/avalondesign.html

    Steve

  3. #13
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    Originally posted by Category 5:
    <STRONG>I'll agree it is going to be less of an issue when you get into higher dollar pres and mics, but it's stilla very valid concern. If it wasn't, the whole story behind the differences between a GR ME-NV and the 1073 front end it is modeled after would be mere m-hype.

    Shane</STRONG>
    Because there are differences in sounds between mic pres, or mics, or cables for that matter, doesn't mean that one has to own one of everything to make good recordings.

    Again, mosts records....one console, one pre, a few main mic choices. The rest is good engineering and great material. Once someone has something like a 1073, TG, Hardy, etc, in hand....one should really worry about a dozen other things before a second, or third, or fourth pre to "avoid stacking errors."

    Regarding the remark about EQing, I don't know any mixes done by anyone without using EQ.

    TH

  4. #14
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    I've asked this question a million times before...and I think I have finally figured out the answer: initial cost outlay...

    A fully blown (fill in the blank) console can run well into 6 figures...whereas a bank of 8 (fill in the same blank) pres can cost a whole lot less...(what - 8 APIs for less than 5K?!?)

    As to the stacking question...this also is a fairly new phenomenom, since up until recently even the big boys were limited to 24 tracks....wasn't the figure Fletcher mentioned 20 tracks? Close enough I think....

    All of this makes sense to me...and since one can get these APIs/Neves (or respective clones) for pennies on the dollar compared to the initial outlay, that leaves some funds for a little variety....again, makes sense.

    Then, factor in passive summing units, that can be run through the sound device of your choice, one can say (in a sense) they have the mixing capacities of an API AND a Neve AND whatever....

    Still, if the outlay for such quality in one box was not so great, I would likely be all over a big board faster than a pit bull on a t-bone....perhaps this is because I've never had one, nor dealt with maintenance issues, heat, etc, of the big beasts....

    It is interesting I think that more and more mid sized (and even big shops) seem to report using their beast boards less and less, relying on simple summing or passive mixing more and more...

    Just an opinion...now what was the question?
    Ken Morgan
    2010 3d VIP

  5. #15
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    Originally posted by Wireline:
    <STRONG>


    As to the stacking question...this also is a fairly new phenomenom, since up until recently even the big boys were limited to 24 tracks....wasn't the figure Fletcher mentioned 20 tracks? Close enough I think....

    </STRONG>

    No one has really ever been limited by "tracks available"....including Les Paul himself.

    People have been dealing with oodles of tracks forever, comping them down into pairs, etc. "Sgt Pepper" done on two 4 tracks, "Abbey Road" on an 8 track, etc, etc. So the supposed "stacking" problem has always been there. It's just that apparently none of the veteran producers Śnd engineers ever apparently saw it as one

    Of course, to a point, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. There's nothing wrong with having a "palette" (gee, that really sounds pretentious) of pres available. No more than it's bad to have 15 mics to try for vocals, when probably you'll use the same 3 over again. If you can afford it, great. My objection is to the new guys at this stuff, who are actually WORRIED about it, when they shouldn't be. Someone is filling their head with the idea that this is a major problem, and there are just too many MAJOR records that sound great made with one pre, for that to be remotely valid.

    TH (give me a 1073 and I'll stack away)

  6. #16
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    Originally posted by 3D Audio Inc.:
    <STRONG>

    Fletcher,

    Is this first hand info? Have you personally tried getting in touch with Avalon? Are you an Avalon dealer?

    Just want to make sure we're not spreading rumors.</STRONG>
    I sent them an e-mail early last week. No reply. they have always replied *promptly* in the past. No one appears to be around right now.
    Doug Joyce
    Animix Productions

  7. #17
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    Originally posted by Fletcher:
    <STRONG>

    I'd recommend you think about retooling your recommendation... nobody has been able to get in contact with Avalon in quite a while.

    Last I spoke to Wynn, they were moving, over a million dollars worth of orders backordered, and had no idea when the move or the backlog would be complete... so if you see one, I reckon you should scoop it up because they're on their way to becoming "vintage"</STRONG>
    There's always Ebay!
    Plenty of 737's to be had there.

  8. #18
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    Tom, I agree with you in many respects. to wit:

    - In my experiences in the small time world, one good preamp (or a farm of the same "one good one" as found on better consoles) produces superb results.

    - Mixing and constrasting pres of various designs, signatures, etc, also provides superb results, but gets the results in a slightly different way.

    - I know that track limitations have not really been an issue since Les Paul's original machine (or Buddy Merrill, Lawrence Welk's guitarist's variation thereof)... but most folks seem to consider the convenience/time factors and the ability to change things deep into the mixing process an asset (I KNOW you knew that...Two can be advocates for different devils...)

    - I think the underlying debate is not so much of sonics, but of convenience, in the track count topic.

    And FWIW: I have no big consoles; I have no hit records; I have no long term and chart verified basis for my observations...just opinions formed on investing a LOT of time studying, researching, a some hands on experimentation in other people's shops, etc...and what I have discovered is that it makes no real difference which method is used...

    But, as I mentioned earlier, money (or more specifically, the lack there of) is THE driving force behind most of my equipment purchases these days...I've been using the OSA MP1C (API clone) on virtually everything I've done in the past 3 months (either as primary input or as DAW out thru OSA and back in) and in doing so, have realized that everything I do sounds (to me) that much better, stacking effects or not....

    My Dad (who knows NOTHING of engineering but a lot about life in general) always tells me "find the one or two tools that work well on everything, and you'll work faster by not having to sort through all the stuff...) I believe this notion applies here as well...

    A tip of the Stetson from one Devil's Advocate to another...

    Ken (gimme the MP1 and I'll stack away with ya...)



    Yes...I need more coffee.
    Ken Morgan
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  9. #19
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    Originally posted by Fletcher:
    <STRONG>

    I'd recommend you think about retooling your recommendation... nobody has been able to get in contact with Avalon in quite a while.

    Last I spoke to Wynn, they were moving, over a million dollars worth of orders backordered, and had no idea when the move or the backlog would be complete... so if you see one, I reckon you should scoop it up because they're on their way to becoming "vintage"</STRONG>

    From the Avalon web site:



    They have not been accepting or answering emails for quite some time now. Try calling: 949.492.2000

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