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Thread: PT HD and RADAR and Studer comparison

  1. #1
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    PT HD and RADAR and Studer comparison

    These figures relate to an ongoing thread at the DUC and are the results of a "difference signal" comparison that I did. You can read it here:

    DUC PTHD 192 bass lite thread

    Table 1:

    Stereo-Energy PAZ Results
    PT vs. Studer 2" difference signal


    FRQ (Hz): Stereo Energy (dB):

    5 -76.7
    16 -69.9
    27 -56.0
    38 -52.5
    48 -52.9
    59 -55.2
    70 -54.9
    81 -55.7
    97 -53.6
    118 -50.8
    140 -52.4
    161 -55.8
    183 -58.6
    205 -62.8
    226 -64.7
    248 -65.2
    281 -61.8
    323 -67.0
    365 -68.1
    410 -68.5
    453 -69.4
    496 -65.0
    539 -65.0
    580 -67.6
    625 -61.0
    667 -69.0
    731 -61.0
    820 -62.0
    906 -58.7
    992 -60.0
    1077 -60.6
    1160 -61.4
    1250 -64.5
    1335 -55.7
    1426 -56.6
    1511 -56.3
    1587 -59.0
    1682 -54.1
    1811 -53.2
    1983 -54.2
    2154 -55.0
    2320 -58.2
    2499 -51.1
    2670 -49.1
    2923 -45.1
    3281 -45.4
    3623 -38.9
    3967 -48.7
    4308 -45.0
    4640 -47.1
    4998 -42.9
    5339 -42.4
    5847 -40.7
    6563 -38.4
    7246 -37.3
    7934 -40.1
    8617 -45.4
    9281 -44.6
    9996 -41.4
    10679 -39.3
    11693 -35.9
    13125 -41.8
    14492 -42.2
    15868 -38.8
    17233 -40.9
    18562 -47.1
    19993 -42.2
    21357 -47.3


    Table 2:

    Stereo-Energy PAZ Results
    Radar vs. Studer 2" difference signal


    FRQ (Hz): Stereo Energy (dB):

    5 -76.4
    16 -61.7
    27 -45.4
    38 -43.8
    48 -44.7
    59 -48.1
    70 -48.0
    81 -49.8
    97 -48.8
    118 -47.2
    140 -51.1
    161 -54.8
    183 -61.4
    205 -69.6
    226 -69.5
    248 -71.0
    281 -71.4
    323 -74.9
    365 -80.0
    410 -80.0
    453 -80.0
    496 -80.0
    539 -79.9
    580 -80.0
    625 -77.5
    667 -80.0
    731 -78.1
    820 -76.8
    906 -73.3
    992 -76.4
    1077 -77.5
    1160 -76.2
    1250 -71.9
    1335 -71.0
    1426 -68.5
    1511 -70.8
    1587 -67.5
    1682 -68.7
    1811 -65.8
    1983 -64.1
    2154 -63.3
    2320 -66.6
    2499 -63.1
    2670 -59.9
    2923 -55.0
    3281 -55.9
    3623 -49.3
    3967 -51.3
    4308 -51.7
    4640 -52.6
    4998 -45.4
    5339 -43.1
    5847 -42.9
    6563 -40.9
    7246 -40.3
    7934 -38.6
    8617 -38.2
    9281 -34.7
    9996 -36.7
    10679 -38.5
    11693 -35.4
    13125 -35.2
    14492 -37.0
    15868 -38.9
    17233 -38.2
    18562 -38.6
    19993 -42.6
    21357 -47.7
    Lynn Fuston
    3D Audio

    Making beautiful music SEEM easy since 1979.

  2. #2
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    To clarify, for those who may be new to this, if the signals were identical, then the difference signal would be "minus infinity" since there would be no difference. Any difference between the two signals shows up on the scale. If the differences are great, then the numbers are higher (closer to 0). So you can look at the two tables and see what frequencies have the greatest difference (a higher value) and those are the frequencies that are the MOST different between the two samples.
    Lynn Fuston
    3D Audio

    Making beautiful music SEEM easy since 1979.

  3. #3
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    I went to the site refered to and read all the post. One of the first post was the only ont that probably came close to the answer. That was RKrizman. He said that Digi did not have buffer amp ahead of the A/D converters. I posted something about this on this board a few weeks back. A typical A/D converter has a very wide input Z re frequency and I recently got a MONO MIA card (24/96) and I replaced the buffer amps (IC's) with discrete amps. A/D's need to be driven with a very low Z amp. This would cause the effect refered to in the post.

  4. #4
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  5. #5
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    Originally posted by Bob Olhsson:
    <STRONG>Is this corrected for the different levels?</STRONG>
    I looked at the peak value of each of the samples and used that to equal the levels. There was only a .1 dB difference on one and a .2 dB difference on the other. You can see the pictures at apple.com > iTools > iDisk > Public folder. Type in "lynn_fuston" and you can find the screen shots that explain it all.
    Lynn Fuston
    3D Audio

    Making beautiful music SEEM easy since 1979.

  6. #6
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    Or see if this works.

    Lynn Fuston iDisk

    This link should take you to the files. They are simpletext docs so those with PCs may not be able to view them.
    Lynn Fuston
    3D Audio

    Making beautiful music SEEM easy since 1979.

  7. #7
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    I lined up 50 Hz. and found the max peak a little higher at 118 on the PT HD file than the Radar.

    An interesting thing is that it was more audible on the Duntechs than on my various headphones which I would have dismissed as utterly insignificant. It's still pretty insignificant but at least I can imagine what MM was hearing.

    What does it mean? Probably not much unless you are plugging a stock Studer 827 directly into an HD interface.

    If I were a manufacturer, the very first thing I would do is make sure my product interfaces flawlessly with an unmodified Studer which is a worst-case line driver. The second would be to make sure I could drive 150 Ohms flawlessly. The third would be to make sure I had 12 dB of analog headroom above digital zero. It takes higher voltage and greater current capability in a power supply to do this but still it isn't THAT expensive to do in a product selling for over a thousand dollars.

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Bob Olhsson:
    <STRONG>I lined up 50 Hz. and found the max peak a little higher at 118 on the PT HD file than the Radar.
    </STRONG>
    That agrees with my testing. But what did you think of the sound? Were you shocked at how different they were? Or surprised at how similar they were?

    The most important thing to me if the Studer is the original (since it is), is how closely each matches to the Studer. Which one do you think was closer.

    BTW, the thread on DUC has grown mysteriously cold since the listening samples were released. I wonder if MM will ever voice his opinion on the samples. We'll see.
    Lynn Fuston
    3D Audio

    Making beautiful music SEEM easy since 1979.

  9. #9
    Kevin Perry is offline Gold Club Member (1000+ posts)
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    I've had to just watch this whole thing go down as i use a PC for internet and iTools won't allow me access.....I hate to be missing all the fun. Anyone with a fast connection want to email me the samples?


    BTW Lynn, did you notice that mixerman has been summoned for a live chat on Wed. night with digi moderating....seems Digi is livid with the 250+ post salem witch hunt.
    Kevin Perry
    Chameleon Music
    Nashville, TN

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Kevin Perry:
    <STRONG>I've had to just watch this whole thing go down as i use a PC for internet and iTools won't allow me access.....I hate to be missing all the fun. Anyone with a fast connection want to email me the samples?


    BTW Lynn, did you notice that mixerman has been summoned for a live chat on Wed. night with digi moderating....seems Digi is livid with the 250+ post salem witch hunt.</STRONG>
    If I still have them, I'll forward them to you.

    And no, I had not heard anything about any conference or chat. Where did you hear about it?
    Lynn Fuston
    3D Audio

    Making beautiful music SEEM easy since 1979.

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