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Thread: What did you hear?

  1. #21
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    Sorry Mixerman, I don't follow RAP (even with all the time that PT saves me, I still have to alot some of my schedule to actual work, so I can't follow all the forums).

    But hey, no additional embellishment of your response now that you know you're one of the few that was right.

    Lee Blaske
    Lee Blaske
    Excelsior, MN
    http://www.reverbnation.com/leeblaske

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
    <STRONG>Sorry Mixerman, I don't follow RAP (even with all the time that PT saves me, I still have to alot some of my schedule to actual work, so I can't follow all the forums).

    </STRONG>
    Well, I've got time today between throwing up and the squirts. And I do take an hour or more at the end of most work days to wind down and follow all the forums. I rarely can go straight to bed, and it allows me to have a cocktail or two as I relax. I also, miraculously, allot time for my family, relaxation between projects, and even vacations. A luxury that no overhead seems to afford me.

    <STRONG>But hey, no additional embellishment of your response now that you know you're one of the few that was right. Lee Blaske</STRONG>
    Ah, but does that point more to an actual lack of difference, or the lack of your ABILITY (and the others) to judge the difference? And therin lies the Mother of all Rubs.

    Mixerman
    Got Alsihad?
    http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit

  3. #23
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    Well, I've got time today between throwing up and the squirts.
    Are you sure that all this throwing up you're doing isn't altering your electrolyte balance to the point that you're perceiving things in a different manner than others?

    If that was the case, I guess I'd have no problem conceding that pop produced for the consumption of anorexic teens would be best mixed on an analog board.

    One of these days, I'm going to have to down some syrup of ipecac before mixing to see if I've been missing something all these years.

    Lee Blaske
    Lee Blaske
    Excelsior, MN
    http://www.reverbnation.com/leeblaske

  4. #24
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    Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
    <STRONG>

    Are you sure that all this throwing up you're doing isn't altering your electrolyte balance to the point that you're perceiving things in a different manner than others?

    If that was the case, I guess I'd have no problem conceding that pop produced for the consumption of anorexic teens would be best mixed on an analog board.

    One of these days, I'm going to have to down some syrup of ipecac before mixing to see if I've been missing something all these years.

    Lee Blaske</STRONG>
    Yeah, well fortunately, I wasn't throwing up until hours after making my determination. So it's not the electolyte imbalance. Thanks so much for your concern.

    I don't make pop produced for the consumption of teens, so we can throw that theory out the window. And even if I did, does that somehow negate my ability to hear? After all, I'm the one that can hear that #1 is FAR superior to #2. You're the one that feels somehow vindicated at the lack of difference.

    As to your downing syrup of Ipecac, I say if it makes it so that you can start to hear glaring differences that you currently consider subtle, it might be worth a shot.

    Hey, I've managed to hold down lunch which means I'm just going to get stronger. Might as well quit while you're behind.

    Mixerman
    Got Alsihad?
    http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit

  5. #25
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    Hey now . . . What's with all the attitude from everybody here all of a sudden? True or false - audio is a competetion sport. Also, audio quality is A) objective, B) subjective or C) extremely subjective. If you answer "true" and A, then I suppose we don't share congruent worldviews and therefore may as well be speaking different languages.

    While I agree that the tracks sounded different, in order to make the argument that one sounded objectively better, there would have to be an accepted set of standards defining, for starters, good and bad audio to which everyone involved in the discussion subscribed. I liked to overall sound of the Neve mix better, but that's my taste. I've never understood why people are so aggressive in selling their audio tastes . . . if we were to disagree on whether chocolate or butter pecan ice cream was "better, I doubt there'd be such an affective display; and I could make a good argument that butter pecan more fully and richly captures the essence of the source cream without masking it's nuances. But I can't imagine anyone taking it personally, or being proud of themselves at the end of the discussion . . . That's all I'll say about it . . . ya'll wanna bicker and strut, have at it, but I don't see the point at all.
    Cheers,
    John Wheeler
    Nashville, TN

  6. #26
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    Like I said on my forum, I can respect one's opinion that the Alsihad mix was better. I can respect one saying they feel the difference is marginal. But to state unequivocally that this somehow puts to rest the idea that the Alsihad 2-buss is flawed, is ignorant.

    If my main man here had stated that he didn't feel the difference was enough for him to change formats, I could respect that.

    Mixerman
    Got Alsihad?
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  7. #27
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    Originally posted by Mixerman:
    <STRONG>

    Ah, but does that point more to an actual lack of difference, or the lack of your ABILITY (and the others) to judge the difference? And therin lies the Mother of all Rubs.

    Mixerman</STRONG>
    I have been so covered up in the studio that I haven't had time to read many of the responses. I hope to catch up tomorrow.

    More than pointing out any flaws in one system or the other, I think this experiment just reminds me of the old saying "One man's ceiling is another man's floor." Different people like different things and different sounds. Some people absolutely adore consoles that I hate. And the same is true of mics. Asolutely it's true of preamps.

    Stranger still, other engineers do work that I love with gear that I hate. Go figure. I don't think this proves that either platform is superior (which was the farthest thing from my mind when I did it) so much as they are different. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. You learn to use the strengths and disguise the weaknesses. Like when Mixerman said that if I had used only plugin reverbs, then the difference would have been blindingly obvious. I don't disagree with that. But I didn't and I won't. Just like he skips certain parts of the Neve architecture becuase he finds them objectionable. You "turn up the good parts and turn down the bad parts" like when you are producing. That's the way to make the best possible product.

    More than anything else, I hope this experiment proves two things.

    1) The talent is more important than the tools, when it comes to engineering.

    2) What's in front of the mic is far more significant than the gear behind it. If you have a great musical group, you can make a great mix "even in PT."
    Lynn Fuston
    3D Audio

    Making beautiful music SEEM easy since 1979.

  8. #28
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    Originally posted by 3D Audio Inc.:
    <STRONG>

    I have been so covered up in the studio that I haven't had time to read many of the responses. I hope to catch up tomorrow.

    More than pointing out any flaws in one system or the other, I think this experiment just reminds me of the old saying "One man's ceiling is another man's floor." Different people like different things and different sounds. Some people absolutely adore consoles that I hate. And the same is true of mics. Asolutely it's true of preamps.</STRONG>
    I agree with this sentiment 100%. I'd go one further, there aren't many pieces of gear that wouldn't provide the perfect sonics in some given scenario, regardless of its quality or the preferences of the user.

    Case and point. There was this 10 rack space compressor in a studio where I was recording this one album. Looked rad, sounded like shi't. I tried it on just about everything during tracking to no avail I tried it on many overdub guitars to no avail. We were spending months recording this album, and I was sure Iíd find something to put this compressor on. I had almost given up, when on this one particular guitar sound was fitting right, so I put the monstrosity in the path, and the sound was magical. It was EXACTLY what I was looking for.

    So should I have bought this particular compressor (it was offered) and carried it around for those rare occasions when it would be perfect?. I chose not too. Not so much because I would have to lug it around, I have cartage for that. Not so much because it would take up a third of an $800 rack. But because I rarely have time to play a hit or miss game with crappy gear.

    It all comes down to speed in the end. Even for me, a guy that looks for a certain sound or color out of his audio gear, I don't want to have to be screwing around all day trying to find the 'perfect mic pre' or compressor for whatever.

    Speed is king. That's why Alsihah's pick Alsihad. For the speed. Lee Blaske even alluded to this advantage when he pointed out that even with the speed that his Alsihad provides him, he doesn't have time to be following "all the forums".

    My interest in speed is to get the best sound I possibly can with the least amount of work. No matter what the situation. If my situation were one that I was a studio owner in a small market city, that solution MIGHT be Alsihad. After all, there are business considerations. I might not be able to charge enough to warrant a $125,000 (or more console). Especially considering I understand how much more important it is to spend the money on a build-out. Iíve said it many times. Iíd much rather record in an amazing sounding room with Alsihad, than a shi'tty sounding room with an 8048.

    But Alsihad doesn't necessarily speed things up for me. And not only because of the sonic degradation that I must spend time to compensate for. Artists want to sing right into the thing so they can do super sexy comps and tune their vocals. Players want Ďdownbeat daysí where we go through and make sure all the downbeats are perfect. Guitar players want to keep every one of the 100 soloís they laid down so they can go through and really pick the best one. Average drummers turned atrocious percussionists want to keep every lame-as's percussion idea because there are infinite tracks, and we can figure it out in the mix. Alsihahís donít want to get rid of anything or commit to anything because you donít have to, and someone might get mad later.

    So now to keep the production in line, I have to spend my time making sure the energy, the liveness, and the musicianship arenít destroyed by temptation. I have to expend energy not to be tempted my own self. So for me, Alsihad doesnít make things faster. Alsihad actually slows down the process. It makes my life more difficult.

    Consider mixing from Alsihad. I have to spend the first 6 hours of my mixing day figuring out which 24-28 tracks Iím going to use for the arrangement out of the 75 tracks that were recorded. Then I have to spend an hour explaining to the singer why the kazoo part that he fell in love with, really doesnít work well with the clave part. Or why that guitar part where heís stepping all over the vocal isnít such a great idea, so I got rid of it. Oh, you know, Iím not complaining here. I donít mind a good challenge either. Iím compensated for my time. And itís all a part of the game. But the problem is, the records donít come out BETTER this way, and thatís what bothers me about it.

    And please, no one give me the overly predictable response to this that itís the people that abuse the gear. Yeah, I know that. But when you have limitations, enough so that it prevents abuse itís not a bad thing. When I got 48 track tapes to mix, there would still be plenty of dead wood. But I wouldnít necessarily be able to make 3 separate productions with the tracks.

    Of course itís the people. Like the Artist. The Artist that has been recording his demos since he was 14 on Alsihad, and canít stand to hear himself not tuned. What are you going to do? This is what he wants, and this is how he hears things, currently. And the drummer who doesnít want to play more than 2 takes because you can just Alsihad it. (True story folks). Alsihad has become more like a drug than a piece of gear. The artist isnít comfortable without it. So your hands are tied. So again, Alsihad makes my life more difficult

    And as if all those difficulties werenít enough, I listen to what Alsihad does to my audio, and Iím disgusted. Iím not incapacitated, mind you. I donít suddenly become incapable of doing my job, which has turned out to be Ďdo the best you can under the circumstancesí. I donít give up and try less hard, on the contrary, I try even harder. I work harder, and do everything I can to make something Iím proud of. No, Iím just plain, disgusted. And then I move on.

    I move on, and make a record, trying my best to compensate for what is lacking.

    Iím not sure the same could be said were the tables turned.

    Mixerman
    Got Alsihad?
    http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit

  9. #29
    Kevin Perry is offline Gold Club Member (1000+ posts)
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    Originally posted by Mixerman:
    <STRONG>But to state unequivocally that this somehow puts to rest the idea that the Alsihad 2-buss is flawed, is ignorant. </STRONG>

    Been cross country for the past week and haven't checked in for a while...glad I could help fuel some discussion with my off the hip comment there!

    I guess there never was a debate that PT mix buss was so flawed you couldn't get amazing work done in it...because plenty of people are. Room for improvement...heck yeah...but not flawed to the point you can't turn out some great music.

    And I suppose its true, the comparison won't put anything to rest either. Much like if Macs and PC's grew legs and raced the hundred yard dash, no matter who won you would still have debates online as to which is better.

    I applaud your ears Mixerman, and your monitoring setup...I'd love to get a chance to hear the CD in a Hidley room in Nashville when i get back. My first assesment was on Event 202/20's (yeah...ugh) and still knew which was which. My only other listen was on some Dynaudio BM15a's before I left town to do some work.

    I think it is fascinating the range of responses...I'm no veteran by any means, but I knew which was which. Might have been the first, since I was "beta" tester...

    Anywayz, thanx for the effort Lynn!
    Kevin Perry
    Chameleon Music
    Nashville, TN

  10. #30
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    Hey MM
    Man you're really dining out on this Alsihad thing, it was a good laugh, nice little joke but really man it's getting old.
    You've got a great talent man and I don't really disagree with most of your schtick, but I'm starting to think that some PT programmer stole your woman, it's starting to sound a little hysterical.
    So a bunch of diltants out in smog land misuse the tool, what's that really got to do with the sound. I agree the sound needs to be discussed and talked about, but your main beef in the last post seems to be the process of tracking with the tool, and if I go to the conclusion that would be logical from your rap, well then I'd have to send 50 punters over to your place so they could record through a Neve, and believe me you don't want to know any of those punters.
    Man I wish we still were listening to lp's recorded on 2" , and mastered onto 1/2" ,myself. But if I were a lot of music that I'm involved in wouldn't be being recorded, and I think that's true of a significant amount of the music being recorded today. so I'll work away on my DAW, flawed as it is, and try to compensate with an inspired performance and some great songs. And personally I've always felt that if you needed more than 16 tracks to sell a great Rock and roll tune, you were a poser. I'll just blow you a kiss 'cause I know how you hate those smileys, and I really hope you can get this Alsihad monkey off your back bro, and get back to enjoying making records again. I think they have drugs for that now you should look into it. Take care and get well soon, Logan

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