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Thread: It saddens my heart

  1. #11
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    It doesn't take long working in this business, especially the Christian side of it, to realize that the biggest problem with Christians is that "they're people too." Humans.
    I played in a well known big band where the band leader would huddle and pray over everyone before the gig. Then like Buddy Rich, he would proceed to cuss out the horn section on stage. We would be afraid to look at him for fear of being singled out.

    If you remember a certain TV evangelist who was convicted back a few years ago, never paid his studio musicians and I watched the local recording studio fold.

    I watched our church split because of two pastors greed.

    There is a saying that religion is for those, trying to stay out of hell...
    and Christianity is for those who have already been there..

    Much truth spoken in a joke.


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  2. #12
    HG is offline Gold Club Member (1000+ posts)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Thom

    I don't mean to turn this into a rant page but it really saddens my heart when someone who's job it is to lead others into the presence of God acts like that. It almost seems that they don't get into God's presence much themselves because of the lack of Godly character.

    I spent a lot of time during those sessions just praying for that artists and those around him so please don't think I was just grumbling. I really did my best to take the spiritual high ground no matter what treatment I received.
    Alot of those so called "Worship Leaders" in charismatic/pentecostal circles are not christian anyway! Would explain alot wouldn't it? Most of the stuff we see on the TV here in Aus from the USA is straight from the Pit by ppl who have absolutely no idea about true Bible teaching and they are always scamming for money!

  3. #13
    PookyNR is offline 3D VIP 2005, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14
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    Well, I'm definitely not a pentacostal (Vineyard, actually), but I would be careful about self-righteous statements about who is Christian and who is not. I'm sure the same thing could probably be said about any of us given the right set of circumstances.
    Am I the only one without a small type signature?

    Nathan

  4. #14
    HG is offline Gold Club Member (1000+ posts)
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    Quote Originally Posted by PookyNR
    Well, I'm definitely not a pentacostal (Vineyard, actually), but I would be careful about self-righteous statements about who is Christian and who is not. I'm sure the same thing could probably be said about any of us given the right set of circumstances.
    Yeah? But, I'm not the one on the TV screen peddling the Word for money and I don't have the latest convertable Merc to drive home in when I leave work. For those who have ears let them hear!

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    My dad taught me an old bit of wisdom:

    Just because there is counterfeit money don't stop earning and spending.

    I think the same holds true for many things in life - religion, government, marriages, etc.

    It's too easy to get disillusioned when we encounter phonies, especially when we desperately need to believe in someone or something. But the only rewards are for those who, while uncovering and exposing the false, still muster up the ability to have faith in the true.
    Steve Cruz
    Cruzified Music Prod.
    Florida

  6. #16
    PookyNR is offline 3D VIP 2005, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    Yeah? But, I'm not the one on the TV screen peddling the Word for money and I don't have the latest convertable Merc to drive home in when I leave work. For those who have ears let them hear!
    Indeed, for those who have ears, let them hear! Jesus had a lot to say about judgements and self-righteousness...

    Do you really think it accurate or wise to judge a few million believers based on the actions of a few bad apples? What about the ones who give their lives to help others?

    Again, I'm not pentacostal, but I don't think it is fair or wise to make such judgements and accusations against the entire group of people because they don't see or do things your way.

    Peace.
    Am I the only one without a small type signature?

    Nathan

  7. #17
    HG is offline Gold Club Member (1000+ posts)
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    Quote Originally Posted by PookyNR
    Indeed, for those who have ears, let them hear! Jesus had a lot to say about judgements and self-righteousness...

    Do you really think it accurate or wise to judge a few million believers based on the actions of a few bad apples? What about the ones who give their lives to help others?

    Again, I'm not pentacostal, but I don't think it is fair or wise to make such judgements and accusations against the entire group of people because they don't see or do things your way.

    Peace.
    Who is being judgmental or self-righteous, I don't think you even know what those terms actually mean?

    A Morman is not a christian, a JW is not a christian, likewise a Pentecostal Preacher performing miracles for huge sums of money is not a christian!

    It's not a judgment, it's a fact! It doesn't need explaining unless your profoundly ignorant of the explicit warnings concerning such ppl!! It's wrong to use Biblical terminology you don't understand right?

  8. #18
    PookyNR is offline 3D VIP 2005, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    Alot of those so called "Worship Leaders" in charismatic/pentecostal circles are not christian anyway! Would explain alot wouldn't it? Most of the stuff we see on the TV here in Aus from the USA is straight from the Pit by ppl who have absolutely no idea about true Bible teaching and they are always scamming for money!
    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    Who is being judgmental or self-righteous, I don't think you even know what those terms actually mean?
    Read the above quote... I think there is a pretty good example.

    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    It's not a judgment, it's a fact!
    Aren't all judgements shrouded in some sort of fact??

    [QUOTE=HG]It doesn't need explaining unless your profoundly ignorant of the explicit warnings concerning such ppl!!

    You mean like Hebrews 12:15?

    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    It's wrong to use Biblical terminology you don't understand right?
    You are making assumptions on my theological education (and yours).

    peace.
    Am I the only one without a small type signature?

    Nathan

  9. #19
    HG is offline Gold Club Member (1000+ posts)
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    Stop being judgmental and self righteous toward me!!

    (See how stupid it is to throw that at somone who is critical of Church leadership. Jesus was critical of Leaders, as was Paul, Peter and Titus who was actually ordered to be more critical for the sake of the flock)

    Don't make assumptions about my Theological training(Reformed Evangelical). Unless someone here has a Phd in Divinity, I am easily the most Theologically qualified here but that's not what intitles anyone to be critical of a movement that unashamedly chases the dollar like a pack of rabid dogs!!

    Not everyone in the Pentecostal/Charismatic church does, just as not everyone in the Catholic church asks Mary for forgiveness of sins, however ALL the Pente/Charo leaders I've seen on Christian TV (the ppl I specifically criticised if you had bothered to read my previous posts properly) are greedy idolaters who have reduced christian 'worship' to a singalong concert on Sunday(see Rom 12....look for the word 'worship' to see how Paul defines the concept 'worship', a word completely misused and misunderstood, particularly in those circles, particularly in America.

    I stand by what I said, they are not christians and do not even represent true christian teaching. I don't have to judge them, they condemn themselves by their own teachings which are not in accordance with the gospel of God. The theological term we use to descirbe such leaders is 'theological liberalism' ask your Pastor to explain it to you or look it up in an Evangelical dictionary. Even the non christians know they are not christians!!

    Here's one here in Australia. The largest Pentecostal Church in Aus called CLC founded by Pastor Frank Houston. Forced to relocate and set up shop by his Son, Brian after this story broke.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Houston

    They are now called Hillsong, just check the christian music charts.

    By the way it didn't stop there. Pastor Pat Maseti, 2nd Head Pastor, Youth Alive Ministries in all the Universities and schools in the whole of Australia, forced to resign after adulterous affair with 16 yr old discovered. Brian Houston told his congregation that Pat could have held his leadership position if he went back to his wife and children and left the girl. Pat refused and is now a millionaire motivational speaker in the...you guessed it...USA.

    It all comes out in the end and they can't hide from the truth. There are thousands of stories like these, and they all say "don't be judgmental and self-righteous", or "let him who is blameless cast the first stone". That old chestnut!! They hardly ever put there hands up and say, "I've done the wrong thing and HAVE to resign", no, they attempt to hold on to their power(market share), and even if they are forced to resign, they set up shop somewhere else.

    I've seen this dozens of times on the News in recent times. Sorry but they are not christians.
    Last edited by HG; 10-12-2005 at 05:04 AM.

  10. #20
    PookyNR is offline 3D VIP 2005, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    Stop being judgmental and self righteous toward me!!
    Honestly, my friend, I am not. I'm not even trying to be antagonistic. But I am merely pointing out the hypocrasy and self-righteous judgement that "they are not Christians." Who are you to say? Do you know what truely is in their heart (aside from the obvious public sin)? What is so much worse about what is in their heart than what is in your own? Is it no longer important that the law was broken but rather the degree to which is was broken? You could be right and some of them could be rotten to the core. But you could be wrong. One thing is certain, only God knows. Not you. Not me.

    Answer me this... A team from my church went to Mozambique. While there they encountered an African pastor whom had been raising many from the dead. Confirmed resurections. This pastor had been commiting audultery. Yet God still continues to use him to raise the dead. What gives??

    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    ...critical of a movement that unashamedly chases the dollar like a pack of rabid dogs!!

    (snip)

    ALL the Pente/Charo leaders I've seen on Christian TV ... are greedy idolaters who have reduced christian 'worship' to a singalong concert on Sunday
    I am sorry, my friend, but these statements seem to have gone well beyond a statement of fact and opinion. The tone is quite base.

    You may not like Charismatic Christianity for whatever reason, but to charge a whole movement of literally several hundred million people by the actions of a few who went the wrong way is silly. What about all of the conservative evangelicals who do all the same nasty things and worse??

    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    I stand by what I said, they are not christians and do not even represent true christian teaching. I don't have to judge them, they condemn themselves by their own teachings which are not in accordance with the gospel of God.
    While I don't fall in line with typical 'classical pentacostal' theology, I disagree that these people have fallen away from 'the gospel of God' and 'true Christian teaching.' Is half of the non-catholic church going to hell?

    I'd also say that it's extremely presumptuous to imply that you know the truth and they do not. I'm sure you must know that there are a number of critics of Reformed Evangelical theology. Some with excellent exegetical evidence to counter.

    Honestly, I'm not trying to be antagonistic. But in this case I think that you've gone over the line in casting a serious judgement against charismatic christians. And I would urge caution before someone points out something to you where they find that you 'cannot be a christian.'

    Quote Originally Posted by HG
    The theological term we use to descirbe such leaders is 'theological liberalism' ask your Pastor to explain it to you or look it up in an Evangelical dictionary.
    What's with the tone of your comment here? You must not be a christian... See what I mean?

    Peace.
    Am I the only one without a small type signature?

    Nathan

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